JMS (John Mason-Smith) (00:00)
for context, I had a stable sales job, was making good money, and I went to you and said, What if I threw this all in the trash and started a payroll company? What was going through your mind during that period?
Maria (00:10)
My very first reaction was, no.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (00:37)
how do you describe yourself to others? Like who who is who are you, first of all?
Maria (00:42)
The most unlikely entrepreneur in the context of this podcast.
I'm someone who finds a lot of comfort in routine and processes and like of course changing some of that from time to time, but I love doing the same boring thing over and over and over. And that is
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (01:02)
Yeah.
Maria (01:04)
very different.
From an entrepreneur. From a traditional entrepreneur.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (01:07)
Well, so this raises
well,
First of all, I've worked with a lot of business owners and founders. And the number one thing they he they say to me when I tell them that I co-founded a business with my wife is, my God, how do you guys survive that? Like I I couldn't imagine.
Well, now we are. Yeah, that that was by design.
Maria (01:23)
Well, we're in separate offices, as you can see. Now, now we
are.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (01:29)
what was your introduction to the world of payroll and PEL?
Maria (01:32)
So I somewhat got dragged into it, somewhat volunteered.
it depends on how far back you want to go. I
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (01:40)
As far back as you need for context, right?
Maria (01:42)
you and I both met at the University of
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (01:43)
My memory my story with you goes back what, eighteen years now, nineteen years? Like
Maria (01:47)
Alabama, both studying business. I think the the parts of business changed over time, but I was studying marketing, you
We're kind of studying entrepreneurship at one point, but switched over to marketing. We graduated during the
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (02:03)
My my dad joked that I was I
switched my major to Maria 'cause I just changed everything to follow you.
Maria (02:08)
Yeah.
graduated during the Great Recession. There was a lot of hustling involved after that. I ended up going back to school for nursing, became an RN.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (02:21)
Wait.
So what made you go from marketing to nursing?
Maria (02:26)
Well, I I wanted a job where I could help people. And also we were during our it was during a recession. that felt like a recession proof career. So did that for a bit. You just start you decided to start your own payroll company. you were growing. I'm over here working all of this overtime as a nurse.
just kind of getting burnt out and you needed to hire another person. And I was like, hey, you know, I know you, you know me. I think we're good working together. why don't you hire me? And then that's how I came on.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (03:08)
I think one of the things that has been kind of a a difficult thing to figure out is where the boundaries are in our lives. our home life, our work life, our
person life, it's all the same life. It's just a question of when are we allocating resources to those different parts of our life? And so it's like if like if I didn't work with you at the hospital, I still was hearing about your struggles at the hospital and trying to trying to be supportive of those things, right? how much do you think the dynamic of our relationship changed when you went from
being you like your own employee to to working together at the same place that that we were both owners of.
Maria (03:46)
Well, we were there all the time together, you know. There's no there's no break from that. But I think the biggest thing is you are not my boss and I am not your boss. we each have the final say and and what we do independently and
it's worked out so far and that we I think we share the same goals and we talk through it. but we are both independent
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (04:10)
One of the things I've been unfortunate to watch happen a few times are founders who are exiting the business because they're having a falling out with each other, In the payroll industry. and this, you know, obviously we do a lot of work with people that are buying and selling and hiring and firing. the thing that comes back to me is like usually the thing that triggers those partnerships to fall apart is
a disagreement on a core direction of the business and there was never a decision at the beginning about who gets the final say. And I know I'm not trying to put you on the spot here, but we never really had that conversation either, did we? What would you think if like I was dead set about going left, you were dead set about going right on something related to to our business?
Maria (04:50)
We would talk it out for days and days and days and days and days.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (04:55)
It would
I suspect at the end I would decide that the value of our relationship is worth more than the value of the business. if you really felt that passionately about it, I'd probably cave, you know.
Maria (05:05)
Well,
luckily that's never bit that hasn't been, you know, an issue.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (05:09)
Has it?
I want to point out that the reason I like working with you as my spouse is because you have no problem telling me exactly why I'm wrong. And I'm not saying that in like a that's not a negative thing. Like when I was working at Pelocity with a manager or when you were working at the hospital with a head nurse or whatever, even if you had.
Really strong convictions about something, they're still in the back of your head of, they have authority over me. And you're like not in that position as my as my wife. there are definitely things where I've said, I would not do it this way, but I value our relationship more than this decision. You know? And that's not something I would do with a
Maria (05:52)
Yeah. Well
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (05:54)
random stranger that was my business partner.
Maria (05:57)
Yeah. I think though on a day-to-day basis, we kind of each have our areas. We both have different strengths. And so you kind of do your part of the business and I do mine.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (06:10)
If I had to think about how I identify Maria, I don't think I've ever looked at you and said, here's a risk taker, here's an entrepreneur, here's I think you're someone who's very measured and cautious.
Which is valuable for me because I'm the opposite.
Maria (06:25)
Yeah.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (06:25)
What was it like having to
Maria (06:26)
Listen, I think the business
wouldn't exist without you and your crazy ideas. But on the flip side of that, someone has to kind of reel it in sometimes.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (06:40)
I talk to founders all the time who are at a crossroads. Hey, I'm thinking about throwing in the towel. Hey, I'm thinking of starting something new. And, the response when they're at this crossroads is, I need to figure this out with my partner. Like, even if they're not in the business, like I need to figure out.
I so before just for context, I had a stable sales job, was making good money, and I went to you and said, What if I threw this all in the trash and started a payroll company? What was going through your mind during that period?
Maria (07:08)
My very first reaction was, no.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (07:12)
Yeah.
Maria (07:14)
But I realized during the course of our marriage, you had supported me when I went back to nursing school. And so this was kind of something you had always wanted to do. Since I had known you, you'd always started little side businesses,
And so this was your opportunity to start something new while I kind of supported us with the health insurance and you know just living expenses. But you had created a savings. We we were smart about it. You, you know, made sure you calculated everything out. And so I knew you weren't
It wasn't just a wild idea. It was something you had been thinking about for years and you had really put a lot of it wasn't as big of a risk because you had planned it out so much.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (08:06)
Yeah. how much did life change for for you and for us going from working for someone else versus now we're having to do our own thing?
Maria (08:14)
Yeah. Well, it's terrifying in some ways because there's no stability for someone else to lean on to. You're figuring out everything. You're literally creating something out of nothing. On the flip side of that, I think it would be difficult for me to go back to a regular job after this because I have so much flexibility. And
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (08:38)
Yeah, what do you mean?
Maria (08:40)
well, just you know.
if the kids have something going on at 1 p.m. on a Tuesday, you know, they have these random things, I'm able to to accommodate for that and to go and to be parts of their lives. And in a way, you know, when I was working as a nurse, that wasn't really possible. you know, it's really hard
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (09:00)
Well
Maria (09:01)
to just take a take go for an hour and and do that.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (09:06)
there's like this illusion of stability that I think companies have to give to their employees so that they don't question.
Maria (09:12)
A hundred percent.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (09:13)
Yeah. So it's like I have to pretend like your job is going to be here for 50 years. Otherwise, you, you know, if if we're having a bad quarter, I can't let my employees know that because we don't want them job hunting at the worst time. Right. and I wonder, you know, part of the dilemma for me was letting you behind the scenes.
At the company, not I mean you were allowed in behind the scenes from day one, but like now that we were both relying on the company, you get to see the cash flow go up and down, and you get to see the months where we're doing really good and the months where you're like, no, this is this isn't working out.
how long did it take you to adjust mentally or have you gotten to a point where mentally you think differently about the cash flow of our lives versus as traditional employees where we're just getting a flat check every single week or whatever?
Maria (09:59)
Yeah, years. I would say probably just recently has that changed to where
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (10:04)
Yeah. Wait, how recently?
Maria (10:08)
like in the past year probably
It it's getting, you know, I I finally reached a point where I realized that that stability that I had as a W-2 employer was probably not in fact that stable. I mean, the choices of other people would impact my position completely, which there is some peace into being a business owner and knowing that
in some ways there's more stability there. It's a it's a a different mental thought process.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (10:40)
What do you mean by in some ways there's more stability? can you break that down
Maria (10:43)
Yeah, I mean you have the final control as an entrepreneur. And and in some ways that's an illusion too. There are things that you can't control. You can't control the market. You can't, you know, there are some you can't control the economy. but you can control your reaction to that.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (11:04)
Yeah. How's that different from just working for someone else, right? I mean like 'cause in a sense you could
Maria (11:10)
Yeah, well they're controlling all of it, right?
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (11:13)
Yeah. Do you like that autonomy better or is it more stressful having to figure that stuff out as the owner?
Maria (11:22)
Well now that we've figured it out, I like it better. It was more stressful at first, I think.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (11:28)
Well, and I think my view of this when we first started the business was at the beginning we were also just having our kids. Our kids were were very young and one of them wasn't born yet. And it was just it was like drinking out of a fire hose from every part of life simultaneously. don't know, do you think we timed it right?
Like, what are your thoughts on that?
Maria (11:50)
Think we couldn't have done it at any other time. We didn't know enough. We didn't have enough knowledge
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (11:54)
What's that?
Maria (11:57)
on the way the world worked to be able to do it. You know, sometimes I think
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (12:00)
Well but now you do.
Maria (12:02)
of people who start companies in their early 20s, and I'm like, man, that's the way to do it. But at the same time, I think because you don't have any personal obligations, you know, you can pour everything into it.
But at the same time, I think we had a lot to learn and we learned it. And but we still have, you know, a ton of career time left.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (12:27)
if you were to magically teleport in your life back to age, I don't know, 28, prior to kids, prior to me leaving my job and starting entrepreneurship stuff, prior to to you leaving the hospital and and all that, would you reorchestrate the timing of everything?
Maria (12:43)
No, no. Would you? This
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (12:45)
How much of this is rose tinted glasses though?
Maria (12:47)
is where you said when I said no, I know that looking back to our twenties, there's so much just even basic business decorum, email etiquette, all of those things that you're learning. You know, I remember you tell a story once of
when you first worked in an office and you went to to talk to your manager about something and she was already talking to someone else and you kind of interrupted and you know, just basic, basic things that you don't know necessarily
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (13:22)
Yeah.
Maria (13:23)
when you're first starting out. So I don't think we were ready.
We learned a
lot by working for other people, essentially.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (13:31)
One of the things that has been really hard for me as an entrepreneur is trusting others to do things, right? Delegation. And one of the shortcuts in our early business was being able to have someone that I already trusted completely with every part of my life, help me on this thing I was doing. Cause it's like,
It's scary to say, hey, I'm gonna hire someone to go in and process bank payments or to talk to this tax agency or to log into my LinkedIn account when that person's living with you and has kids with you and shares a mortgage with you. Cause it's like, in a sense, we're already one financial entity. I mean, not even in a sense, like literally when we file our taxes, they're joint, you know?
let's say an old friend says, Hey, me and my significant other who I've lived with or been married to, we're gonna we're gonna start a a coffee shop or something because we have a I don't know, I'm making up a business. Any business. I wanna work with my spouse. What
Maria (14:25)
Okay.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (14:26)
would you say?
Maria (14:27)
Okay. Well, typically spouses are connected financially, right? So I would want them to take a hard look at their financial scenario. The difference is when you started your payroll company, I was still bringing in income. I still had our health insurance tied to my position. So
Two people quitting their livelihoods to start something completely new that probably won't be profitable right at the beginning. That sounds very scary.
I would want them to look, take a hard look at their finances and and you know calculate it out how much money do they need to live on, how much money do they need to start the business.
when do they think they'll be profitable? I mean they need to do all of that.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (15:19)
your answer is encapsulates the way our brains work differently. And it's one of the reasons I love working with you so much because your answer immediately went to a practicality, realistic, I think that's true on a continuous basis for someone that you share finances with. You always need to be thinking about cash flow and risk and all that kind of stuff just to manage your life. I'm thinking from an emotional standpoint.
If someone said, Hey, I don't want to hurt my relationship with my significant other. I don't want to damage this this precious thing that is our friendship or our, you know, relationship. But I think they'd be the best person to help me start a business. Should I do it? What are your thoughts on that?
Maria (15:59)
Hmm. I think they could do it, but they need to have separate parts of the business that they are each able to control and trust each other with that control.
you can't be together in everything making decisions together about every aspect of your life. You have to have some autonomy separately. That's true.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (16:23)
Well, originally
we were in the same office. I'm actually sitting at what used to be your desk. And
Maria (16:28)
Yeah.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (16:30)
you are now in the kids' play space. Why is that?
Maria (16:34)
Hmm, why is that? Well for the same reason. I was getting very distracted and wrapped up in what you were doing on your side of the office with your conversations.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (16:45)
Well, it it doesn't my my
job was juicy gossip for a living 'cause
it's like, let me talk to the CEO about drama. So you were just like
Maria (16:49)
Exactly. Exactly.
So I think you were a little you were a little hurt when I moved to my office, but I think
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (16:58)
Yeah, I felt like were quitting.
Maria (17:00)
well I wasn't quitting. I was just getting my own space.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (17:04)
we've kind of done multiple businesses. My question is specifically, if we were going to go back to starting a payroll company from day one, I mean, what are your thoughts if someone asked you, hey, I'm thinking about starting a payroll company
Maria (17:20)
Well, I think this is a good time to start a payroll business. I think that it's a good business in that once you make a sale, you
Are essentially essentially serving that client, you know, over and over and over again versus having to make a single sale over and over again. You you retain that client. post COVID.
you're able to hire experts from around the country. You can create the best team regardless of where you're located. but I think, whether someone should start it depends on some other questions. Like, are they at a point in their
lives to your to your question earlier about did we start it at the right time? Like,
Are you at a point in your life where you're able to really grind right now? Because it is that in the beginning. And I'm not I'm not thinking about people who have investors and that's a different grind. I'm thinking of of mom and pop payroll companies. like yeah,
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (18:25)
Which we literally were. We were having babies, mom and pa.
Maria (18:28)
you know, when you start, you're doing everything. You were doing operations and sales and
marketing and making sure we are registered for everything and everything on the back and the
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (18:40)
gosh, yeah.
Maria (18:41)
front and all of it. And so you have to be at a point when you're you're able to do that. And what is your mindset? Because there are going to be things that go wrong. And I think that successful entrepreneurs tend to be optimists, eternal optimists. And so I would ask about that.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (19:06)
Well, Maria
Maria (19:06)
That was a very
complicated answer. The question, the
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (19:09)
Yeah.
Maria (19:09)
answer to your question is maybe.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (19:12)
We started a payroll company, but it was not the first company that I started. Like I have a lot of failed business ideas prior to the payroll company.
What are your thoughts on like some of my other business ideas? I'm gonna be real honest. They were kind of dumb, but I had to like try them to find out that they were dumb. You were very supportive during all of that process for these businesses that failed too. You just weren't involved. what was it like?
being married to someone starting really badly designed businesses that failed.
Yeah.
I mean, we weren't gambling. I was keeping my day job. They were side hustles, but
Maria (19:50)
Exactly.
Well, that's that's one of the differences between starting a payroll company and some other businesses is that these other businesses you could do as a side hustle. And the payroll company, I think it's real hard to do it that way. You, you know, someone's having a payroll emergency, they need to be able to pick up the phone and talk to you right now, not hey, when I get off of my nine to five, you know. But it was the first one that was able to support us financially.
And that
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (20:20)
I mean, I
I would argue we we started the payroll company because it was the thing I just knew the most about.
sometimes the most obvious path is the hardest one to see because my brain was trying to think outside of the box so hard that I forgot to think about where I was.
if I wasn't a payroll guy, would we have just started something in an industry that was our industry that we already knew about? Like w should we have started a nurses related company, a nursing company, you know?
Maria (20:47)
Hmm. Yeah, that's an interesting question. I I think that what I've come to learn is that the payroll company, payroll company, the payroll culture amongst independent payroll companies is very supportive. and I think that like I mentioned earlier.
the revenue comes in over and over and over and over again. And so I do think it's a great business to be in. It can be stressful, you know, I think second to life and death, people hold money in really high regards, maybe some people even more than life and death, but so it it can be a stressful business to be in.
But also a very supportive one and rewarding one.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (21:38)
if you had the ability to go back in time and have a 30 minute conversation with the two of us at the very beginning of this journey, what what wisdom would you impart on us 10 years ago prior to going down this rabbit hole?
Maria (21:54)
Yeah. I would say hire as soon as possible.
Hire out what you're not good at. So know your strengths. which you kind of did, but I would have done it more aggressively. For example, you're really good at sales, your background is sales. and we we did hire an operations person, but I would have made that team more robust so that you could focus entirely on sales selling.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (22:22)
Yeah. Well that's the founder bottleneck and I
still struggle to to like let other people do things when I feel like, but I know how to do it, you know?
Maria (22:29)
exactly you have to delegate otherwise how are you gonna grow you know and
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (22:34)
Yeah.
Maria (22:34)
I'm thinking about those times where where maybe you were sick or a family emergency you know there are times where no matter how punctual and good at attendance you are there are times where you just literally cannot do your job you know norovirus comes for everybody you have
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (22:55)
Well Maria
kids comes for us all when you kids.
Maria (23:01)
I mean you have to be able to have a team to rely on because there are things that you are not able to do and also your time is probably potentially best served elsewhere growing the company. And I think as soon as like as soon as you start doing a new thing, you know, okay, figure out how you can replace yourself.
So that you can keep growing. And I I also think the
difference is when we started our company, remote work was not as popular as it is now post COVID. So
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (23:38)
Yeah, it was pre COVID. Yeah.
Maria (23:41)
we were hiring in our area. We we didn't have an office, but we were hiring in our local area. And I think now there's so much potential to
find the best people across the country. So if you're starting with a a a specific software stack, you can find people who already know that and you're not limited to people in your 50 mile radius or whatever. I might, but I'm not I I I
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (24:07)
You you might be a little biased though. I'm just saying like you we spend a lot of time doing job placements.
Maria (24:13)
am you are right, but I do think
towards the end of my
nursing career, I did work for a company working from home. And that was part of their plan. We had people working from home in various parts of the country. And, you know, if we were having a snowstorm in Virginia, well the folks in Tennessee and the Tennessee office would be able to man the fort while that happened. And so I think that's a huge advantage for people starting now.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (24:43)
Well, to put a button on that, was this a good idea?
and if it hadn't worked out, would you be glad that you did it? Or would like would you have regret that you didn't stay on the corporate path?
Maria (24:55)
Hmm. Yeah, I do think it was a good idea. I don't think it's for everyone, but I do think it was a good idea for us. Listen, it was something you
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (25:04)
Yeah. Well, thank you for letting me
Maria (25:07)
had you had always wanted to do for your whole life. You've always wanted to have your own company.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (25:12)
There was a lot of places in this journey where things could have blown up and we were, I don't know if lucky is the word, but resilient. and I I just want to say thank you for being with me on all that journey. Cause like there were a lot of times when you could have said, you need to get a real freaking job. You know what I mean?
So.
Thanks again for for all of that. Anything else you wanna throw out there or plug or or
Maria (25:35)
Scared.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (25:39)
have out in the ether before we wrap up?
Maria (25:41)
I don't think so.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (25:43)
How do people get a hold of you?
Maria (25:44)
They don't they get a hold of you.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (25:47)
They don't.
Yeah, they go to John MasonsMith.com and they leave Maria out of it. So it's so funny.
Maria (25:53)
Awesome.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (25:54)
People are like, You're you have a spouse in the business? I never see her. And I was like, That's the plan. So you know, shouldn't want to
Maria (26:00)
Mm-hmm.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (26:01)
be sane. So thank you for putting yourself outside of your comfort zone. and yeah, it was great having you on here. And I and I love you.
Maria (26:11)
very kind. Love you too. Love
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (26:11)
Fine, don't say it back.
Maria (26:13)
you too.
JMS (John Mason-Smith) (26:16)
Okay. Thank you.
